A little before Resurrection Sunday (Easter Sunday), we were able to have a sit down interview with currently the most talked about Pastor on Oxygen’s show “Preachers of Detroit,” Pastor David A. Bullock. Pastor Bullock has been the Senior Pastor at Greater St. Matthew Baptist Church for the last 10 years. Pastor David Bullock is of course a Pastor, an Activist, Advocate, Founder and official spokesperson for The Change Agent Consortium (C.A.C.) which is a national coalition of faith labor, civil rights, and active citizens. He’s also a professor and now to add to his list of titles and talents a cast member of “Preachers of Detroit.”
If you have ever watched “Preachers of Detroit” then you know Pastor Bullock is the one to ask intense questions, challenge your knowledge, and encourage you to stop talking about what you’re going to do and force you to put actions behind your words! If you have ever been skeptical about Pastors and their motives, watching Pastor Bullock and listening to this interview will help put you at ease, knowing that there are people in the world that still care about the well-being of others in every aspect of life. This interview provides a glimpse of who Pastor David Bullock really is, while including his insight on many topics from the movement to entertainment. To view/listen to the full interview click the link below!
Tenacious Talk Interview with Reverend D. Alexander Bullock
Hosts D’Arne’ and Ashley Rae
D’Arne-Welcome everybody back to Tenacious Talk
Ashley Rae– Hello!
D’Arne-We are so excited that you have tuned in again. Please be sure to check-out our first Podcast which was the Education podcast. The second which was
D’Arne and Ashley Rae- (In Unison) What’s For Sale?
D’Arne– And now this wonderful podcast is an interview with a great guy that a lot of us know because of a great Television show that came out.
Ashley Rae– Called “The Preachers of Detroit”
D’Arne- YES! He has a lot to say and we’re very excited to have him today and his name is Pastor David Alexander Bullock. First we would like to thank you.
Ashley Rae– Yes, thank you very much for agreeing to this. (Pastor slightly interjects)
Reverend– No problem.
Reverend– Thank you all. I appreciate you.
D’Arne– It was really nice meeting you. Before my Father passed away he was telling me about this (imitating her Father’s voice) “young guy Bullock I don’t know he’s just so great.” My Dad he was like this revolutionary man.
Reverend– Wow
D’Arne- Umm and he was just like he’s so great. And we were like okay. Cool. Cool. (laughter) Then when he passed away it’s like Oh I met him Daddy hey, so it’s very nice to meet you.
Reverend– Aww that’s great. I appreciate meeting you all as well.
D’Arne– Thank you. Okay, so, we wanted to- We have like, a few questions that we want to ask you and they range from introduction questions, getting to know you, to television shows, TV and media. To the movement questions.
Reverend– Okay.
D’Arne– So my first question to you is- First who are you? Tell us a little bit about you. We wanna know something.
Reverend– Okay. Who am I? Who is Pastor David Bullock?
D’Arne– Yes
Ashley Rae– Yes
Reverend– Umm, just a regular person. You know, I umm, I was born is Boston. I grew up in Detroit I went to U of D Jesuit High school on 7 mile.
D’Arne– So we tried to do our research.
Ashley Rae– We really did. And I’m like I can‘t find it.
D’Arne– That high school is nowhere to be found. I’m like what high school did he go to?
Reverend– Yeah that’s on older bios. I think the newer bios don’t really talk about the school.
D’Arne– NO
Reverend– It just says I graduated from high school when I was 16.
D’Arne– Yeah
D’Arne– Yeah
Reverend– Ummm grew up in the church, my Dad’s a Pastor, my Grandfathers are Pastors. Umm. You know I’m just; I’m just a regular person. And.. I’m just a product of my experience.
Ashley Rae– You keep saying that. You are not a regular person (Pastor laughs)
D’Arne– (laughs) NO
Ashley Rae– You don’t understand that.
Reverend– I don’t.
Ashley Rae– You are not a regular person.
Reverend– Okay
Ashley Rae– You uh, Okay the first word I think of when I hear Pastor Bullock- Indomitable.
Reverend- Indomitable. That’s a big word.
Ashley Rae– It is.
Ashley Rae– What do you think (Asking D’Arne)
D’Arne– I Don’t want to say radical because there are negative connotations when I say and feel the word radical it’s somebody who really wants to shake up things
Reverend– Umm hmm
D’Arne– And really don’t, you don’t like the norm.
Ashley Rae– Exactly
D’Arne-So, you want to say something. You want to step up, you want to stop out, so I say radical.
Reverend– That’s fine. I’ll take that.
(D’Arne & Ashley Rae laughs)
Reverend- I’ll take radical. Yeah, I mean, but, you know it’s in my family. My Grandfather marched with Dr. King in Selma you know he was a big player in Boston in the 50’s So anywhere, anybody from Reverend Ike to Malcolm X you know he was in the mix helping them. You know? Umm My Father is pretty respected, very respected in Detroit. My Grandfather was respected in Georgia when he Reverended, his brother in Philly. You know it’s just in the family but, you know I really don’t see myself as anything special. Umm just, you know I’m just passionate about certain things and I try to live my passion.
D’Arne– Humility, I like that. You can’t find that in a lot of people nowadays. Okay so in Detroit, we all love Detroit. What’s one of your most favorite things to do in Detroit?
Reverend– What’s my favorite thing to do in Detroit? There’s nothing to do in Detroit. Ahh EAT!
D’Arne– Where?
Ashley Rae– Did you just say that?
Reverend– EAT.
D’Arne– There’s nothing to do in Detroit? He did say that and he didn’t waiver.
Ashley Rae– He didn’t
Reverend– The occasional cigar bar, I guess Casa de Havana but ummm I don’t know EAT, I like to go to good restaurants Ocean Prime, Joe Muers, or maybe Lafayette Coney (Everyone laughs).
D’Arne– I can’t remember the last time I went to a Coney Island. Okay
Reverend– Umm But yeah I do a lot of dining, lots of eating.
D’Arne– Yeah
Ashley Rae– I think we all do. I like Ocean Prime a lot.
Reverend– There’s nothing to do in Detroit. (Ashley Rae huffs)
D’Arne– It’s not, it’s not, and that’s one problem with Detroit. (Ashley Rae interjects)
Ashley Rae– I don’t, I don’t agree with that. It depends on what you want to do.
Reverend– Besides the movies and eat?
D’Arne– I was just about to say that. Bowling maybe.
Ashley Rae– You don’t want to go to the museum?
Reverend– I mean, after you’ve been one time… Do you keep going again?
Ashley Rae– They have different expo’s (Reverend and D’Arne laugh).Yes, you keep going they have different expos.
Reverend– (Laughing) Okay, well I didn’t know that. I go to the DIA. I live-
D’Arne– On Friday’s at the DIA. Do they still do that? Like live music and stuff on Friday’s?
Reverend– And they used to do the movies (In sync everyone says Yeah).
Ashley Rae– So if you weren’t Pastoring, or being this wonderful advocate that I personally think you are what field do you think you would be working in?
Reverend- If I wasn’t pastoring I would probably be a full time college professor or a book writer. I think actually, no, you know I taught college.
Ashley Rae– Yeah
Reverend– Umm and it’s okay. I’m actually teaching a class right now, it’s okay, but I think I would probably just be a book writer. Or like u, an entertainer, like a producer.
Ashley Rae-A producer of what?
D’Arne– What would you produce?
Reverend– Music, movies, plays. You know? I would probably just do my artsy side.
D’Arne-Oh! You’re artistic?
Reverend– Yeah.
D’Arne-Like what? Like outside of producing. What do you like to do? Like singing? Oh I did hear you sing.
Reverend– Sing and ummm- I’m actually working on a mixtape.
D’Arne– You hit that run on that one song. That Detroit song.
Reverend– Yeah (laughter)
Reverend– Ummm I was so, I was so sick.
D’Arne– I was like he hit a run (Starts laughing)
Reverend– I actually have a song I’m working on right now you guys want to hear it?
D’Arne & Ashley Rae– Yeah, sure
Reverend– I need your feedback anyway. I was so sick when we did that “My City” and that was two takes.
D’Arne-Really?
Ashley Rae– Wow
Reverend– And ummm it didn’t have any words.
D’Arne– A friend of mine was in that. The young lady with the blonde hair in the back and in the middle. Yeah
Reverend– Okay
D’Arne– She’s my model friend.
Ashley Rae– Awww
Reverend- Yeah, this is, I don’t know if you guys will be able to hear it well. But this is a little song I’m working on (plays music). It’s very rough (Laughter). It’s very rough.
D’Arne– Disclaimer
(Music plays)- “ I never understand when they say that lovers have no price to pay.” “It sounds so simple so naive cuz the truth of love is challenging, see love is just a precious gift but it’s not free you gotta work for it. Love has demands, pressures, and pains, but that’s the price of L-O-V-E (chorus) It may cost your life, L-O-V-E it may sacrifice, L-O-V-E tears and sweat but there’s no regret, L-O-V-E cheers to the past it won’t always last L-O-V-E for eternity. That’s the price of LOVEEEEEE”
(Music continues to play)
D’Arne– Are you doing the backgrounds too?
Ashley Rae– I like it. I’m like about to cry. I get kind of emotional (laughs)
D’Arne– It has like a 90’s feel.
Ashley Rae– Exactly.
Reverend– Yeah.
D’Arne– That’s good.
Reverend– Yeah.
Ashley Rae– And you know D’Arne and I ?-
D’Arne– That was good.
Reverend– That’s real rough.
Ashley Rae– That was really –
Reverend– We tried to put the R&B feel on it.
D’Arne– Yeah, I like that, I like that.
Reverend– Ummm
Ashley Rae– That was nice.
D’Arne- Of course we’ll love it because we come from the 90’s. We grew up in the 90’s.
Reverend– Yeah, Yeah we definitely wanted it to have that feel.
D’Arne– That’s good
Ashley Rae– That was really good.
Reverend– Like I said that was like real rough.
D’Arne– And we graduated from DSA so…we understand-
Ashley Rae– I was just about to say that. So when people like say they can sing we’re like
D’Arne– Critical.
Ashley Rae– We’re really critical, like really can you sing?
D’Arne– Yeah, like we’re going to tell the truth. (Reverend laughs) yeah so..
Reverend– So, yeah I be doing stuff like that.
D’Arne– So what is advocating mean to you? What does being an activist mean to you?
Reverend-Ummm well I’ll tell you what it means more than being active, right?
D’Arne- Ummm hmm
Ashley Rae– Yeah.
Reverend– It means more than protesting and marching. For me it’s really about public policy. The rules.
D’Arne– Yeah
Reverend– It’s all about the rules so it’s two sides to it. One side is there are a lot of bad rules that affect people’s lives, and then you have people that don’t understand how bad the rules are. So for me it’s about making people aware of the rules and ultimately changing them. For instance ummm police brutality is very popular right now. When did they start pulling people out of cars for having tinted windows?
Ashley Rae– I posted that.
Reverend– You know. Like when, like this is, so I guess my point is this is obviously like a policy change in police departments.
D’Arne– I guess so. Okay yeah.
Ashley Rae– Yeah
Reverend– So when did that happen and who thought that was a good idea?
D’Arne & Ashley Rae– Yeah
Reverend– Right? And so you have bad rules and bad policies whether it’s at a police department or a state law or a city government ordinance. You know and it affects people’s lives.
D’Arne– Umm hmm
Reverend-So advocating means identifying the bad rules and changing them, and obviously making people aware of them so they can change. That’s what it means to me.
Ashley Rae– Don’t be surprised if you see that quote on twitter tonight.
Reverend– (laughs) Cool.
Ashley Rae– Okay. So, I want to get into the media.
Reverend- Okay.
Ashley Rae– My question is how do you feel about exploitation and just African American programming that we see on TV right now?
D’Arne– Umm hmm
Ashley Rae– Like you know our Love and Hip Hop.
Reverend -Umm hmm. Sure.
Ashley Rae-So…
Reverend– Empire.
Ashley Rae– Empire.
Reverend– Preachers of Detroit.
Ashley Rae– Preachers of Detroit
D’Arne-Yes.
Ashley Rae– You’re the best thing on that show by the way.
Reverend– Well I appreciate that.
(D’Arne laughs)
Reverend– And I really do appreciate that because there is a lot of work involved in what people see on Preachers of Detroit that we had to do in terms of controlling the image. And what I don’t think people understand about media, is that media is produced. And the networks job is to get ratings.
D’Arne-Period.
Ashley Rae– Yes.
Reverend-So people watch the slimiest stuff.
Ashley Rae– Umm hmm
Reverend-And so while you want people to watch you still have to control the images.
D’Arne– Umm hmm
Reverend-And so whether you’re (pauses) Talent typically is not looked to for input.
Ashley Rae– Right.
Reverend-Right? So when you’re talent so technically “I’m talent” It’s hard to have a conversation with producers about you know what do you guys need , what does the network need, and this is kind of what I’m willing to do. So what was cool about The Preachers of Detroit process is that we were able to have input in it. I mean but overall I just think, obviously we don’t control the media, umm we don’t buy the commercials, ummm we are not the executive producers and so when you’re in a position where you don’t have any control what do you expect to get?
Ashley Rae– A bunch of things cut, copied, and pasted together.
D’Arne– So..
Reverend– And then people like that stuff too
Ashley Rae– They do. Oh absolutely.
Reverend– So on the flip side of it, in exploiting African Americans well people like to watch exploitation. So you know? I mean: Is there a balance? Probably.
Ashley Rae– Ummmm – Okay. So…
D’Arne– Is it that they like it-
Ashley Rae– Or that’s what they are used to?
D’Arne– Yeah, or is it that they are being told that they have to like it?
Reverend– You know I sat on a panel discussion two weeks ago and I was talking about like the booty shots and somebody was talking about Nicki Minaj. And I said look the bottom line is this if people didn’t want to get booty shots they wouldn’t sell them. I mean that’s capitalism. And so I understand is there a need for them out there that they are tapping into ,well there is a market.
D’Arne– umm hmm
Ashley Rae– Right
Reverend– There is a market. There’s a market. Right? And if something is put on TV and people have an adverse response to it then that’s going to change the way it’s put on television. If people love it then they’re going to give them more of it. So, when we get more of stuff it’s because people are consuming it and I’ll say this about Preachers of Detroit, Preachers of Detroit is a great show because we are dealing with substantive issues.
D’Arne– I agree. I do agree with that.
Reverend– But the views are not the same as Preachers of L.A.
D’Arne– No?
Reverend– No. The live views are a little lower and I think it’s because it’s not enough flash, we don’t have like the Noelle Jones and Loretta story in every episode. We don’t have the baby out of wedlock. (Says in joking manner) Detrick with the baby.
(Ashley Rae laughs)
Reverend– So you know you got the Bishop that’s married and that’s a good piece about sexism but I don’t think sexism is as exciting to people as Detrick’s baby.
D’Arne– But if that was- Okay so every time we turn on television, every time we turn on the radio, we’re being fed something.
Ashley Rae– Right.
D’Arne– And if we were slowly fed the good things about television, the good things about life then I think eventually people’s perception and perspective would change and they would want things like that.
Reverend- I disagree because there is so much on television.
D’Arne– True.
Reverend-You got the Discovery channel, you got the history channel, and if, what I noticed about the history channel is that they actually have changed the way they produce their stuff. So when you watch the history channel now they try to make it look like a movie.
Ashley Rae– That’s true.
D’Arne– That’s true. That is true.
Reverend– When talking about ancient Greece or Rome they are acting out the action scenes, just a lot of blood. They are still telling the history but people still don’t watch that stuff. They still want to watch Empire. So, and I , I, loved Empire.
D’Arne– You sound like us.
Ashley Rae– yeah in our last podcast.
Reverend– I was infatuated with Cookie. You know? What’s going to happen with Cookie? But you know? Is that like the best representation of African American womanhood? Probably not. You know but we watch it because we like it. And so let me say this too though there is a place for entertainment and I think we have to remember that.
D’Arne– Yes.
Ashley Rae– Right.
D’Arne– And I totally agree with that last statement but there are so many people who don’t understand that it’s only entertainment. It’s not something-
Ashley Rae– It’s not real life.
D’Arne– Right, Right, you know?
Ashley Rae– It’s entertainment and that goes back to what we talked about as far as selling and promoting a certain image.
Reverend– Umm hmm
D’Arne– Yeah.
D’Arne– So with the television show do you feel that it really portrays who you are?
Reverend- I think Preachers of Detroit shows you glimpses of who I am. Umm I’m obviously not like that all the time. Ummm but what you see is, is David Bullock. Umm You know I will ask the questions nobody wants to ask. You know? I will be umm. I will take it to the streets. You know? I raise the question push the envelope and I don’t have a problem doing that. But you know I talk to people and they’re like “Oh you seem so cool and mild mannered. I didn’t know you were like that.” And I’m like you know yeah, yeah, but if you want to hit the switch. (Both host laugh)
Reverend– And then I am on the show so I understand that too you know? And I think some of, some of the cast mates really thought like it was a Christian television program and it’s not. It’s a secular network. You know? And we gotta make this show make sense. I want to watch the show when I get done so I don’t want to be going to sleep on my own show. So it’s me though, it’s me.
D’Arne– We appreciate that side of you.
Ashley Rae– Absolutely.
D’Arne– We don’t get to see that on any kind of television show ever. Just someone really speaking up asking questions-
Ashley Rae– And doing
D’Arne– Not agreeing with everything.
Ashley Rae– And actually doing it. Not just talking about it. Putting these things into action and calling you to the mat about not doing it. I appreciate that.
Reverend and D’Arne-, Yeah, Yeah.
Ashley Rae– I appreciate that.
D’Arne– And I think that’s why we even started this podcast because we really wanted to say those things that people don’t say. Yeah you’re thinking it, yeah you may be talking about it when no-ones listening but, we wanted to talk about it we wanted to really put it in someone’s face and say like yeah this is a problem. Whatever the topic maybe.
Reverend– Nah that’s cool. That’s cool. I love it.
D’Arne– So okay this is kind of like a switch but umm down in Atlanta a lot of Educators were indicted and they were indicted for this entire scandal of umm people lying about test scores and juking stats, just so they can look better I guess.
Reverend– Money.
Ashley Rae– Money.
Reverend– Money. Money.
D’Arne– Yeah. Yeah.
Reverend-So yeah this is about money. Right? This is about umm higher test scores are tied to some type of financial benefit so they juice them up a little bit. So it’s unfortunate obviously there is a crisis on Education in this Country. You know? But on certain Ivy league campuses they juice up test scores anyway.
D’Arne– Yeah
Reverend– And grades because they don’t want to ruin people’s lives. They want to get the scholarships. I think the real conversation is when did education because about everything except students?
Ashley Rae– Everything.
D’Arne– Thank you. Yes.
Reverend– That’s all I’ll say about that.
D’Arne-Okay we are going to move along with some other things that we really like to talk about. (laughs)
Reverend– Okay.
Ashley Rae– The movement. What is the movement to you?
Reverend– Yeah, so I don’t think we have a movement. The movement is dead. It’s been dead for at least 40 or 50 years. Uh what we have are people imitating images from the movement. So people doing commemorative marches ummm. People having insignificant press conferences, umm people having rallies that are not connected to rule changes. (D’Arne laughs)
Ashley Rae– Yeah.
Reverend- That’s what we have and I was telling, I was saying this to a group of folks on Monday really the movement died when Black Power died. And when the morning hand report came out that basically said all the problems in the Black Community were self- perpetuated.
D’Arne– Umm hmm
Reverend– So the official policy of the Federal Government for the last 50 years has been to see every major problem in urban America that’s a self- perpetuating individual responsibility lack of common sense issue as opposed to Institutional, rule, racism, and public policy issue. So when Dr. King won in 65’ that was the last win. So he goes to D.C. in 68’ and gets killed that year saying we’re going to D.C. to get our, to get our check and to change the way wealth is distributed in this Country so that’s the movement. That stopped in 68. Ummm so most of the Civil Rights Leaders after King were put in positions. The middle class moved in and the underclass was still locked out and in the mean time between time we got these Ferguson revolutionaries and these Facebook freedom fighters, and these heavy-weight champions of tweets. Trying to change the world one social media platform at a time and it’s like until you change rules, primarily around how resources are distributed you don’t have a movement so that’s the movement. So When that starts to happen is when we’ll have a movement up until then we’ll just have social critics. Those are our leaders now. The Rowland Martins, The Tavis Smiley’s.
Ashley Rae– Okay.
Reverend– The Cornell West’s
D’Arne– So is that tied into voting or is that tied into aspiring to be in politics what is that tied into to?
Reverend– The movement I’m talking about?
D’Arne– To-
Ashley Rae– To reestablish the movement?
D’Arne– To really get it started again.
Reverend– Well I think Politics is a part of it, Right? Because if you’re going to change the rules you only change the mind by rebellion right? or by political engagement. So it’s either the ballot or the bullet to change the rules. So you have to be involved in politics to get the rules changed but they have to be a political wheel in culture to make the rule change possible. Right? So electoral politics is the end of a cultural shift. Right? And that’s what we don’t have we can get folks elected for the most part. But we don’t have the right culture. So when you start talking to people about wealth inequality they are just like well those folks are lazy that’s why they are poor. Right? When it’s like no even the people that have money are not wealthy because 1% has 95% of the wealth. They don’t understand that. Right? Then you start talking about public ownership of water departments people will say you’re a communist, that’s socialism. No, I’m talking about everybody getting a dividend check if we all pay for the water. (Both Hosts- Right, Yeah) Wouldn’t you want to get a check or a discount from paying for what you’re using anyway? That’s called public ownership “Oh” I mean so we don’t have the right kind of conversations so we don’t have the right rules. Even around the legalization of Marijuana. It’s just crazy. People will talk about legalizing marijuana but won’t talk about automatic expungement retroactively for everyone that has a charge tied to trafficking marijuana. Right? I mean those things seem to go together. You know, so I mean all that kind of stuff. The destruction of the health care system, public education, people losing their pension I mean I think Detroit is ground zero for all this stuff because they changed all the rules.
Ashley Rae– I needed to go back on something that you stated about the social media tweets. Do you think?- In my mind I think that these things people tweeting, putting up Facebook states helps make people aware. It may not be the activism that we need but it’s something.
Reverend– Nah it’s good and I think that uh beggars can’t be choosey and when you’re hungry bologna is like filet mignon. But at the end of the day it’s still bologna. And you’re still begging. So Yeah you send out a tweet but the tweet doesn’t have any code of action. It doesn’t have a phone number on it. You know it’s just “police brutality.” Well what’s the number to the Ferguson police force? Where is the link to sign someone up to vote? Uh how are we creating a data base for these tweets? And so it’s not strategic. Right? An expression is not Activism. If expression were activism rappers would be Activist. You know what I’m saying? Preachers would be Activist. You know? Umm but when you get happy in church you’re expressing yourself. But you’re not doing nothing. So it’s like we gotta move. Expression is good but activism is when you take what you feel and create a plan to make sure you don’t feel that again.
D’Arne– I agree, I do agree with that however, we talked about this in a previous podcast our peers are afraid to do things like that.
Ashley Rae– Yes
D’Arne– because once they step out and say something they lose a job, they lose
Ashley Rae– They are afraid to like a Facebook status.
D’Arne– Yes.
Reverend– Yeah, that’s because people who never fought for anything don’t know how to fight! Ummm and we are the generation that benefited from the fight to be included. Right? But so, one thing about being excluded you never had a chance of getting in right? So you’re not afraid of losing anything because you don’t have nothing.
D’Arne– That’s true.
Reverend– Right, so I think, and I agree with you, I think that umm the hip hop generation and the millennium generation can’t lose the concept of ownership and control. Right? Because being included and losing everything so that you are included and don’t own anything actually just makes you a new kind of slave.
Ashley Rae– We kind of talked about that.
D’Arne– Yeah, Umm
Ashley Rae– We need our own. Creating our own.
D’Arne– And in creating our own I don’t feel that people know how to do that. They don’t know how to find those resources. The people that have those resources and that knowledge aren’t willing to share it.
Reverend-Yeah, I think that’s good. I agree with you. I agree with you emotionally. But it’s not true.
D’Arne– It’s not true?
Reverend– We are the smartest generation that’s ever excited in African American people. We have more resources than anyone has ever had. I mean when you think about Benjamin Banneker designing Washington D. C. right?
D’Arne– Umm hmm
Reverend– Or the Cotton Gin, ummm you know what or, George Washington Carver did for plastics right? The constant level of planning coming from George Washington Carver he called Henry Ford and told him you should set up your production the way plants do.
D’Arne– Umm hmm
Reverend– Right? Because how is a plant tied to a car? It’s not (laughs). They got that from botany I mean so when you think about the genius of African America, I mean just the genius of our food and our music, and the will to survive. Umm how Harriet Tubman was able to take that many folks to freedom. I mean you think about all of that and now we got apps, and twitter, Facebook, and google
Ashley Rae– That’s what I’m saying.
Reverend– You can teach yourself anything off the internet. You don’t even have to have a class. So, it just reminds me of Booker T. Washington teaching himself how to read by over hearing White men reading the newspaper now whether or not that’s true or not, I mean because he wrote the book (everyone laughs) Right? I mean what it suggest is that he, that there is a whole tradition of auto didactic Right? Method of auto teaching in our community but someone since the Civil Rights movement we think someone has to show us everything.
Ashley Rae– Right.
D’Arne– That’s true.
Reverend– And everything is at our disposal. And I meet people all the time talking about “nobody helped me, nobody showed me, I don’t know where the resources are.” It’s like find them.
Ashley Rae– Yeah, Yeah, they are out there.
D’Arne– Yes.
Ashley Rae– They are on your phone.
D’Arne-I do agree. I do. Like technology is right at your fingertips but I think when it comes to relationships and talking to people I think that’s where the work gets done. Like when you have a meeting but you actually have actions steps and you have goals and you get that done that’s when the work gets done. Like yeah I can read okay how do I start whatever, x, y, z? But if you have somebody with you to start and get it done, it can get done.
Reverend- Yeah, nah and I understand what you’re saying.
D’Arne– Okay
Reverend– And I think that’s right but having, having hung out with some prominent powerful people ummm……. Ultimately you have to do it yourself.
D’Arne– Okay
Reverend– Yeah
D’Arne– But I don’t want to
(Laughter)
Ashley Rae– At least the very beginning.
Reverend- And that’s cool, that’s cool. That’s cool. (Laughs) I’m with that.
D’Arne– It’s fun when you have other people and you get a lot more done. But okay.
Ashley Rae– So if you had the opportunity to sit down with any leader of the past who would it be and why?
Reverend– Jesus! And not because I’m a Pastor.
Ashley Rae– Okay.
Reverend– Because I think when I read Jesus in the New testament a lot of the stuff that I experienced, Jesus experienced so I would like to like really be able to talk to Jesus about how does it feel to have Disciples betray you? You know? What’s it like ummm to fight for a group of people who are your people who are lost and don’t receive it?
Ashley Rae– Ummm hmmm
Reverend– You know? Do you really think Calvary was the right decision? (Laughs)
D’Arne– Wow. Like I really would love to have that interview.
Reverend– Like I really, like really want to ask Jesus like you know? You know? Having done it would you do it again (laughs)? You know? I mean those kinds of things.
D’Arne– I think he would.
Reverend– But just. So Jesus. You know? Ummm yeah.
D’Arne– And I think you know or you feel that Jesus was Black right?
Reverend– Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jesus was Black, or you know of course “Black” is an African American term but Jesus was as Cornell West would say Swarthy you know. (Everyone laughs) He had some color in his cheeks so he is not what most people see when they close their eyes.
D’Arne– Yeah
Reverend– Which is the whole part of that. You know, I would hate to be enslaved by a White supremacy and then close my eyes and pray to a White man for freedom. It’s like those kinds of things like we need to try and get through and out of us.
Ashley Rae– When you said having people betray you within your organization that just brought me to you having an entourage. Do you have an entourage? And if you do, like who’s in it, why do they, why do they roll with you so to speak?
Reverend– Ummm I don’t really have an entourage. No I don’t have an entourage. There are people that are a part of the organization that perform certain functions. Umm obviously Julius does a lot of assisting and then there are other people in specific places. But I don’t really like to travel with a whole lot of people
Ashley Rae– Ummm hmmm
Reverend– And it’s difficult sometimes to have an entourage and get things done.
Ashley Rae– Umm hmm
Reverend– Because kind of hanging together becomes an end in itself.
Ashley Rae– Umm hmm
Reverend– And then you know commonality breeds contempt so people lose sight of the work and then they start to uhh fetishize over the personal relationship. You know. So I think we have to keep the work first and I don’t know if people can really do that.
D’Arne– So you like to work alone.
Reverend– No. I like to work together but not in the same space (Everyone laughs).
D’Arne– Okay. That sounds good.
Reverend– I mean I can’t possibly do any of all this any of this stuff that we are doing by myself. But you know I’d rather text or call and say how’s it going because… And don’t get me wrong I mean sometimes we work in groups but you know? People will join an entourage not to do any work. They join the entourage to be part of the entourage.
Ashley Rae– Umm hmm
Reverend– So you can always kind of collect people to go hang out or go to an event but that’s not really the work. That’s just going to an event and hanging out or something like that.
Ashley Rae– So you like to organize the organization.
Reverend– I like-
Ashley Rae– And delegate.
Reverend- Yeah
Ashley Rae– Okay
D’Arne– That’s how you stay sane.
Reverend– Yeah and
Ashley Rae– That’s apparently how you get work done.
Reverend– Yeah
D’Arne– Okay so how do you define success?
Reverend– I think success is being able to live life on your own terms. You know? Whether you are deemed successful or not by people outside of you, you know one being able to manage your own time so that your time is your own. Two being able to manage your own money. So you can decide how much money you want or don’t want to make. You can decide, you know, you can decide, how you want to live financially. I think ummm defining your own uh love relationships you know how do you want to be in love if you want to be in love. Who you want to be in love with. Umm you know, your own spirituality. So I think being successful means you set boundaries for yourself. So many people have boundaries set for them in every area of their life. They got to go to work, they got to do what their boss say, they got to be with this person, they got to live here. You know and I mean so they seem successful I guess but they’re not even living their own life.
Ashley Rae– Umm hmm, umm hmm. So do you consider yourself successful?
Reverend– I think I’m getting there. I think I’m getting there. I think I’ve got a lot more growing to do some things I need to put in place but I’m headed that way and I’m committed to doing, to being successful.
Ashley Rae– You talked a lot about love. We heard a love song and uh
Reverend– Oh yeah I love, love.
Ashley Rae– Are you looking for love?
Reverend– Ummm am I looking for love? I think so
Ashley Rae– Or are you waiting for love to find you?
Reverend– No I don’t think that, that’s how it works. Ummm yeah I’m looking for love but see when I talk about love I’m not talking about like romance, you know? I’m talking about border line unconditional acceptance. So yeah I’m looking for that.
D’Arne– That’s hard to find.
Reverend– Yeah so I sing about it. (Everyone laughs)
D’Arne- Before we wrap up I do want to tell you that I appreciate the type of person you are ummm the voice that you have. I think, I mean I really don’t know you too well but, I feel that we’re similar in that manner but because I’m a woman I have issues because people don’t accept that too well.
Ashley Rae– You’re not supposed to say that much.
D’Arne– Yeah.
Ashley Rae– This is just experience
D’Arne– I’ve experienced that a lot and I appreciate you really stepping up and stepping out and using those words and things that people don’t like to hear and you say those things so
Reverend– Yeah
D’Arne– I do appreciate that.
Reverend– I appreciate that
Ashley Rae– And not leaving women behind in that.
Reverend– Yeah, no, and I appreciate that and I try not to I mean you know, umm I think it’s very important for women to be empowered. And of course it’s, you have to fight for that space but see I just know that myself being an African American man that’s younger and I mean, all of the spaces that I have I had to fight for. You have to fight for that space, so that’s just a part of it you know so, don’t. I think once you wake up in the morning and know you have to fight for it then you just do that.
D’Arne– Umm hmm
Reverend– And that doesn’t become “why I gotta do this all the time or this always happens every time I try to, or man see here they go again,” so now it’s just like that’s a part of it but you can, you can wrestle that space away and you can win those fights. And you get stronger.
D’Arne– Well I need to take notes. I have to continue to fight. It’s just, it’s difficult, really difficult but, ummm we do appreciate you sitting down and having this interview with us.
Ashley Rae– Absolutely.
D’Arne– Umm you didn’t have to again but you did.
Ashley Rae– You could have been anywhere else.
Reverend– Oh no problem, and I appreciate you guys
Reverend– I look forward, I look forward to doing it again.
(Both hosts)– Oh cool. Cool.
Reverend– I think this is a cool way to get information out
D’Arne– So we had a wonderful, wonderful interview today we are so excited. What did you think about it Ashley?
Ashley Rae– Oh my gosh it was, it was amazing. It was epic, especially for Tenacious Talk
D’Arne– Yes
Ashley Rae– For Pastor Bullock to take time out of his busy schedule to come and have a live interview with us. That’s so amazing. That shows so much humbleness and integrity to do such a thing. We appreciate it here at Tenacious Talk.
D’Arne– We honestly do so we just hope that you guys continue to follow our journey to listen to our podcast and to give your feedback. We want to hear from you guys. So if you just want to send us an email you can at 1tenacuios DICTIONARY.COM GO AHEAD and look that up (LAUGHTER) TENACIOUS, 1tenacioustalk@gmail.com You can find us on twitter IMD’ARNE that’s IMD_ARNE
Ashley Rae– And I am AshleyRae817 that’s my twitter and my Instagram.
D’Arne– Instagram umm oh wait I just changed mine I think it’s I’m D’Arne. Well I have to get back to you guys. I don’t remember my Instagram it was something different but whatever. But, check us out leave your feedback, make sure you just let us know some good stuff, some bad stuff something we would love to hear it. Once again thank you see you guys again.